News For the Mormon Legal Community

Amen anon. The undertones of this backlash have a ...

2008-11-17T23:23:00.000-05:00

Amen anon.

The undertones of this backlash have a sterotypical abuser mentalitiy. "You brought this on yourself - you're making me hurt you."

What these extremests want is not democracy - they only want their way. And in their skewed view of reality, only that is democracy.

Take a breath, it will help. Gay marrige was law f...

2008-11-15T20:02:00.000-05:00

Take a breath, it will help.

Gay marrige was law for a few months because 4 judges decided it should be law. The people of the State of California disagreed with those judges and so now it is no longer legal. So you're saying that judges can give rights, but the people are not allowed to take those rights away.

While it's nice that you have some suggestions for the LDS church, perhaps they are better suited to decide what's most important to them. Or is that not their right as well?

Has anyone actually looked at the Church's disclos...

2008-11-15T19:44:00.000-05:00

Has anyone actually looked at the Church's disclosure forms?

Karger's claims are pretty specific, and I assume he wouldn't file the complaint without having looked at what the Church filed and what evidence he has (of course I could be wrong).

To my memory this is the largest political involvement that the Church has undertaken since the Equal Rights Amendment (assuming this isn't larger).

I realize that the Church's legal team may be able to find a way to defeat the claim.

What's more interesting to me is, could the Church have made an error in its reporting?

Wow--this site floors me: Sorry to inform—a lot of...

2008-11-15T15:52:00.000-05:00

Wow--this site floors me: Sorry to inform—a lot of people hate the LDS church for lots of reasons. I can't believe the "victim stance" on this site. The church has targeted gays—its only rational that some will strike back with “free-speech.” Stop feeling sorry for yourself—I had church members threaten my LDS stance for gay marriage, it works both ways. And so much for innocent until proven guilty. Get a grip.

NO Clint, YOU don't realize...if the church can't ...

2008-11-15T15:46:00.000-05:00

NO Clint, YOU don't realize...if the church can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. The church is not a victim--they targeted on group. The church brought this on by trying to take away peoples rights—which are not—or should not—be up for majority vote. So what’s next...maybe we should protect marriage by keeping Utah from being a divorce mill state....or how about banning all divorce in general....OR or Or lets keep Wiccans from marrying...or Atheist...or...
Maybe the LDS community needs to focus on being pro-life, In my 33 years I have never seen the church become politically involved in abortion. THAT is more important that this issue ever could be, as stopping gay marriage doesn’t stop people from being gay…get a clue…

Wow Clint, are you an actual lawyer? First--you do...

2008-11-15T15:37:00.000-05:00

Wow Clint, are you an actual lawyer? First--you do not know that the hoax was perpetrated by people of the LGBT community. Further, the act of one member of a group does NOT represent the whole group. For example, I am an LDS gay-rights supporter, like many LDS people I know. So does that mean ALL Mormons are supporters of gay rights? Get a clue: people are INDIVIDUALS, they don't all support each others actions. Grouping everyone together only proves your bigotry. And ya, maybe the majority of the Americans can be bigots: we have seen that before, haven't we? Don't blame a whole community for what some do: just like as an LDS member, I don't want to be lumped in with a bunch of anti-equality/haters.

Finally educational credentials are being recogniz...

2008-11-15T14:59:00.000-05:00

Finally educational credentials are being recognized when it comes to presidential candidates.

John McCain should have chosen Mitt Romney who has impeccable academic creditials. Afterall, John McCain was ranked 894 of 899 while attending the US Naval Academy and Mitt would have elevated the ticket.

Everybody conveniently ignored the educational credentials of Barack Obama and Joe Biden. Both Received their Juris Doctorates.

Barack Obama was the Editor of the Harvard Law Review and became the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. Barack also taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years. Like Mitt, Barack Obama also graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard.

Do you believe that three consenting adults should...

2008-11-14T23:15:00.000-05:00

Do you believe that three consenting adults should be able to marry each other?
Yes, and your religion supported it for some time as well.

Do you believe that a man should be able to have a sexual relationship with his dog, goat, sheep, horse, or turtle?
Considering how a dog cannot give consent, no.

Do you believe that a loving brother and sister have the right to marry?
Personally I don't, but the bible supported Abraham's marriage with his half-sister, you should too.

Do you believe that a 16 year old girl has the right to a sexual relationship with her 40 year old teacher, who she is madly in love with?
No, because in our country, we have decided that anyone under the age of 18 is not mature enough to make that kind of decision.

Do you believe that a man who is in love with a small child should be able to have a sexual relationship with him/her?
There is evidence that such a relationship is psychologically harmful to the child, so no.

All of the above questions are real world scenarios. All of the above scenarios ARE ILLEGAL. All of the above scenarios are inhibiting someones desire to demonstrate their love to another person (or animal). If you truly believe that I should support your desire for gay marriage because it's what you want then to avoid being a hypocrite you must join the above mentioned groups and help them in their fight to express their love as they wish.

Because after all who are you to tell a man that he can't have sex with his dog?

When you remove all standards of right and wrong from your life, when you discount religion, when you say God doesn't exist, when you throw out basic logic you can come up with some pretty ridiculous results.

The only question that you posed that has any semblance of validity is the one about bigamy. However even that falls short, considering that marrying more than one person goes directly against the idea of marriage, a commitment. You cannot commit yourself, body and soul to multiple people. Only one.

The Church has been criticized since its inception...

2008-11-13T20:26:00.000-05:00

The Church has been criticized since its inception. This is hardly something new to us. Aparently we haven't learned just to shut up and watch civilization destroy itself. It's almost as if we are on a mission to warn our neighbors. Now, it turns out that I'm a politician for doing that. Wow! I can't wait until the check arrives.

It's intersting to see how the opponents of Prop 8 spew hatred, bigotry, and ignorance with every opportunity in front of Temples, meetinghouses, in "parades", and on television. I think it should be called Fascotolerance. Believe what we tell you to believe or we will destroy you.

I can't wait to start throwing that one around.

Fascotolerant biggots! traditional marriage haters! LOL!

More hate and bigotry by those who support gay mar...

2008-11-13T13:43:00.000-05:00

More hate and bigotry by those who support gay marriage. Good times.

When the Mormon church chose to enter the politica...

2008-11-13T13:37:00.000-05:00

When the Mormon church chose to enter the political sphere, the fact that they are a religious institution became irrelevant. They led non-Mormons in their political campaign, and they exhorted everyone – regardless of their religious affiliation — to vote "yes" on Prop. 8, which affected Mormons and non-Mormons alike.

Mormon leaders were acting in their role as citizens in the democratic process. But as citizens leading a political campaign, they cannot escape public accountability for their public actions. After all that, the leadership of the LDS cannot suddenly change roles, toss up their hands and say, "You can't criticize us! We're a religion!" They forfeited that right when they threw themselves enthusiastically into a non-religious, political campaign.

This is not bigotry or discrimination against a religion. They are politicians now, and they deserve the same scrutiny and criticism due to any other political leader or movement.

Listen, just what about teaching kids that some pe...

2008-11-12T17:38:00.000-05:00

Listen, just what about teaching kids that some people marry their same sex is going to hurt them? Kids study how Hitler interned millions of Jews during WWII...does it make them go out do the same? Just what is the problem? This isn't teaching them to go off and date their best friend. This isn't about teaching them to "be" gay, its teaching them there "are" gays out there. What's the problem?

I am not quite sure how you were able to graduate ...

2008-11-11T23:01:00.000-05:00

I am not quite sure how you were able to graduate law school. Your writing skills are very poor and your grammar and sentence structure is worse.

How do you define office holder in the church? Eve...

2008-11-11T01:14:00.000-05:00

How do you define office holder in the church? Every 12 year old boy who is worthy holds an office of the priesthood. Our clergy is not paid, tithing money wasn't used to support prop 8. Any money that came from the church was above and beyond tithing dollars, it was money donated specifically for the reason it was used for.

I don't want this to come across as I am blindly supporting and following my religion. I am a gay woman who chooses to remain celibate and single within the church. Believe me when I say that choice came after a LOT of struggle. I feel a LOT of turmoil about the whole situation, most especially sorrow for those like me in California.

Tough situation for Mr. Young. "Do I make a state...

2008-11-10T18:25:00.000-05:00

Tough situation for Mr. Young. "Do I make a statement that harms my marriage or my church? Maybe I should just not take a public stand. . ."

Revelations 3:15-16

When an initiative was passed in California to rei...

2008-11-09T23:56:00.000-05:00

When an initiative was passed in California to reinstate the death penalty, it affected two fundamental rights- the right to life and the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment.

The court held that it was validly adopted as an amendment.

Actually, the financial support orcheastrated by t...

2008-11-09T16:14:00.000-05:00

Actually, the financial support orcheastrated by the church, calls into question its 501(c)(3) status as a church. Especially since so many of the persons giving are office holders in the church. It may have been from personal accounts, but just like money laundering crimes, the could call into play the RICO act...

The question is was it the actual governing body/c...

2008-11-09T09:55:00.000-05:00

The question is was it the actual governing body/council of the church that donated the money or was it individual church members who contributed individually.

There will be your loop hole to stand on if it is taken into the Federal court System.

you people are sick and demented for denying right...

2008-11-08T05:27:00.000-05:00

you people are sick and demented for denying rights to other human beings.

What needs to be said, but seldom is, has to do wi...

2008-11-07T23:27:00.000-05:00

What needs to be said, but seldom is, has to do with the homosexual sex act itself. It's perverted. It is an abomination, but few are ready to acknowledge it.

This is the real reason why the LDS Christians oppose SSM, and why non-LDS Christians oppose it, or should oppose it. God has forbidden man to lie with man, because it perverts the purpose of sex and marriage.

When Mormons teach their children about marriage, it's in the context of a bond and relationship that will never end, passing through death, standing before the judgment seat of God, rising in the resurrection, and dwelling with the billions of families that will inhabit the earth for a thousand years, preparing for its coming transformation into a celestial abode, when the old earth and the old heavens shall pass away, as a new earth and a new heavens replace them.

In that day, the former earth and the former heavens will not be remembered, or come to mind. However, this great hope and glorious vision of the future is forever lost to those who, for whatever reason, reject the path that leads to their part in it.

Yet, that is their business, and they have the God-given right to choose what they will believe, or will not believe.

Nevertheless, it would be foolish to think that the Mormons don't understand how their children will have to withstand the persuasion of those who will come among them saying, "Believe it not!"

They will be cajoled, prodded, brow beaten, scorned and even persecuted for their faith in the sanctity of marriage. They will be urged to reject it as folly, to look upon it narrowly and consider it as a foolish and a vain hope, in a thousand subtle, and some not so subtle, ways, and, alas, many will surely succumb, choosing to believe it not.

Do you think, then, that the Mormons don't have the right, indeed the duty, to defend their position, for their children’s sake? Should they not be expected to seek to firmly establish the holiness of marriage in the minds of the people, striving to circumscribe and minimize, in every legal and ethical manner possible, the power and influence of those whose persuasion in the schools, in the media, and in the halls of the state, is, and ever will be, exerted to deny it, to the utmost of their ability?

Institutionalizing perversion, officially calling good evil and evil good, allows it to be taught in public schools, written into public laws, accepted as the community standard, and treated as a publicly sanctified norm, to which no opposition can be brooked.

Clearly, we must oppose such a move, and resist those who seek to establish it, for whatever reason, or face the consequences, when we are fully ripened in our iniquity, like the cities of the plain.

I have been following with interest the deplorable...

2008-11-07T17:44:00.000-05:00

I have been following with interest the deplorable reaction of many voters in California towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after 52% of the voters in California voted in favor of Proposition 8 (similar to Florida's Amendment 2 which also passed, but with 62% of the vote). It is ironic that as part of the recorded dedicatory prayer for the Los Angeles Temple given in March 1956, LDS President David O. McKay said, "We express gratitude for the right of the people to resort to the ballot, and for freedom to meet in legislative halls to settle problems and disputes without fear of coercion of dictators, secret police, or slave camps. Help people everywhere to sense more clearly that government exists for the protection of the individual—not the individual for the government."

It would be most helpful to our democracy for the media and leaders of both the Democrat and Republican parties to speak up and remind many voters in California of this wonderful and essential democratic principle. Especially, when put in context with 56 million plus Americans who just voted against Mr. Obama last Tuesday and are now being properly asked to give him respect as our President-elect

I am gay and have first hand knowledge of Morman p...

2008-11-07T17:05:00.000-05:00

I am gay and have first hand knowledge of Morman politics. They use a lot of money to push an agenda that never have any consequences for the mormans themselves: they simply say the consequences don't apply to them because of separation of church and state thereby dumping unjust pain and hurt on others. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG.

I read this article a week or so ago, it breaks my...

2008-11-07T14:30:00.000-05:00

I read this article a week or so ago, it breaks my heart.
The Church has made hell on gay lds members testimonies, and their families.
Not to mention those non-members who now have even more reason to speak out against the church, after it had advocated to "politically neutrality"

... not to mention

D&C 134:9 - We do not believe it is just to amingle religious influence with civil government

WHY CALIFORNIA SHOULD PASS PROPOSITION 8Marriage i...

2008-11-07T11:16:00.000-05:00

WHY CALIFORNIA SHOULD PASS PROPOSITION 8
Marriage is the legal, social, economic and spiritual union of a man and a woman. One man and one woman are necessary for a valid marriage. If that definition is radically altered then anything is possible. There is no logical reason for not letting several people marry, or for eliminating other requirements, such as minimum age, blood relative status or even the limitation of the relationship to human beings. Those who are trying to radically redefine California's marriage laws for their own purposes are the ones who are trying to impose their values on the rest of the population. Those citizens opposed to any change in California's marriage statutes are merely defending the basic morality that has sustained the culture for everyone against a radical attack.
When same-sex couples seek California's approval and all the benefits that the state reserves for married couples, they impose the law on everyone. According non-marital relationships the same status as marriage would mean that millions of people would be disenfranchised by their own governments. The state would be telling them that their beliefs are no longer valid, and would turn the civil rights laws into a battering ram against them.
Law is not a suggestion, as George Washington observed, "it is force". An official state sanction of same-sex relationships as "marriage" would bring the full apparatus of the state against those who believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. This has already happened in Massachusetts (CatholicCharities and Lexington Public Schools), New Jersey (Methodist Church lost its tax exemption), etc. The Protect Marriage Coalition views this as outlawing traditional morality.
Eliminating one entire sex from an institution defined as the union of the two sexes is a quantum leap from eliminating racial discrimination, which did not alter the fundamental character of marriage. Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called "expansive energy," which might best be summarized as society's will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.
Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.
When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.
If feelings are the key requirement, then why not let three people marry, or two adults and a child, or consenting blood relatives of any age? . Marriage-based kinship is essential to stability and continuity in our state. Child abuse is much more prevalent when a living arrangement is not based on kinship. Kinship imparts family names, heritage, and property, secures the identity and commitment of fathers for the sake of the children, and entails mutual obligations to the community.
The US Supreme Court declared in 1885 that states' marriage laws must be based on "the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony; the sure foundation of all that is stable and noble in our civilization, the best guaranty of that reverent morality which is the source of all beneficent progress in social and political improvement.''

The anti-Prop 8, pro gay marriage crowd ran ads ch...

2008-11-07T11:09:00.000-05:00

The anti-Prop 8, pro gay marriage crowd ran ads charging this whole idea that public schools will teach gay marriage is just a "lie."

However, the same groups who said its a lie – “public schools will teach about gay marriage whether parents like it or not” — were in court in Massachusetts filing amicus briefs arguing parents don't have any right to opt their children out of the pro-gay marriage curriculum.

From the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) Amicus Curiae Brief:
“, it is particularly important to teach children about families with gay parents.” [p 5]

From the Human Rights Campaign Amicus Curiae Brief:
“(parents have) no right to remove the books now in issue – or to impose an opt-out system.” [pp1-2]

From the ACLU Amicus Curiae Brief:
“ parents do not have a constitutional right to override pedagogical judgment of the school …King and King.” [p 9]

Which side is really telling the truth here about its aims?